Potential problems stemming from a kitten being too immature at weaning may not surface for months (or possibly longer) so unless a breeder proactively follows up with each kitten and inquires as to each potential issue and does so for many many kittens/years, they couldn't in all honesty take a position that releasing at ten weeks is the best practice. And a breeder using a flat ten weeks as the cutoff without a caveat that the kitten has adequately matured tells you they're basing this decision on a calendar rather than the progress of the kitten.
And yes, since Ragdolls are known to mature much more slowly than most cats, 12 weeks may not always be sufficient.
Anyway, WildFeline is doing this exactly right - doing the homework and then making a decision.
As I said we got ours at 10 weeks and he was fine and our breeder after 1 yr we email and talk on a regular basis. If one of mine have any issues I call her before anything. She helped me alot when we had issues with eyes this winter. It had nothing to do with the age either. The one we got at 12 weeks has actually had more issues than the 10 week.
To me I do think I have a great breeder. I will go back to her again if and when I can have another.
Laura, one can make the same observation about 12 weeks, 14 weeks or 100 weeks. In addition, one can make the same observation about the converse. One would have to have all of that information to confirm that there was any DISADVANTAGE to placing the kittens at 8 weeks or 10 weeks. I can tell you, that I can get most kittens ready to go home at 10 weeks or 12 weeks or 14 weeks and they will be at DIFFERENT places in being ready depending on how I handle the litter.
And immaturity as a negative characteristic should NOT take months to show. The kitten will either be fully weaned and social or not. One can tell a confident kitten (and not all kittens are confident at 10 months and query whether two more weeks with mom is going to change that).
I have never noticed that Ragdoll kittens develop more slowly socially or physically than other cats during kittenhood. They open their eyes at the same age. They wean at the same age. They get teeth (both sets) at the same age. Their kitten period growth paces and slows the same. They start to sexually mature at the same age, including some quite young. But perhaps 15 years of breeding them is not enough time to tell.
The best way to make your decision would be to visit the breeder and discuss your concerns with her. As a breeder myself I would welcome a visit from prospective buyers to discuss any issues they had prior to agreeing to buy a kitten and the more questions I am asked the happier I feel that I have the best home for one of my kittens. If the breeder is too far away then a long telephone conversation could be the next best thing, just be prepared for the breeder to want to call you back if she is busy with kittens.
(05-26-2010 12:25 PM)Paulagene Wrote: [ -> ]As I said we got ours at 10 weeks and he was fine and our breeder after 1 yr we email and talk on a regular basis. If one of mine have any issues I call her before anything. She helped me alot when we had issues with eyes this winter. It had nothing to do with the age either. The one we got at 12 weeks has actually had more issues than the 10 week.
To me I do think I have a great breeder. I will go back to her again if and when I can have another.
Hi Paula, I'm glad you found such a great breeder and your kitten at 10 weeks is such a gem. If I lived by you I'd ask for the breeder's name. Laura
(05-26-2010 12:45 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]Laura, one can make the same observation about 12 weeks, 14 weeks or 100 weeks. In addition, one can make the same observation about the converse. One would have to have all of that information to confirm that there was any DISADVANTAGE to placing the kittens at 8 weeks or 10 weeks. I can tell you, that I can get most kittens ready to go home at 10 weeks or 12 weeks or 14 weeks and they will be at DIFFERENT places in being ready depending on how I handle the litter.
And immaturity as a negative characteristic should NOT take months to show. The kitten will either be fully weaned and social or not. One can tell a confident kitten (and not all kittens are confident at 10 months and query whether two more weeks with mom is going to change that).
I have never noticed that Ragdoll kittens develop more slowly socially or physically than other cats during kittenhood. They open their eyes at the same age. They wean at the same age. They get teeth (both sets) at the same age. Their kitten period growth paces and slows the same. They start to sexually mature at the same age, including some quite young. But perhaps 15 years of breeding them is not enough time to tell.
The article in a thoughtful manner lays out numerous potential problems with not allowing a kitten to fully wean and bond. It sounds like your process is to let the natural development of the individual kitten govens your decision. That's pretty much consistent with the main view of the article. It's just the article promotes the 12 week threshold as the better rule of thumb over 10 weeks and clearly provides several reasons for this viewpoint.
Quite the contrary, you cannot judge, for example, the development of a kitten's immune system and problems could well present months down the road or longer. You would never know in any given kitten if a disease could have been avoided if they had been allowed additional time as a kitten.
We just have a different risk tolerance. Based on your greater experience you see no problem with ten weeks. Based on everything I've read, I would simply choose to wait two more weeks or perhaps even longer under certain conditions.
Ever since starting early speuter, we place kittens at twelve weeks and later, typically between 12 and 14.
I would expect that the immune system's development is more likely to be stunted by being with the queen than helped. Even kittens who are weaned and from whom the queen has been kept long enough to dry up her milk will nurse on her for some time and may get her milk to start again, which can interfere with the effectiveness of immunizations. I do not know any benefit to the immune system to being with the mom for those two weeks. If the theory is that the immune system becomes stronger in those two weeks, which it may well, then one should see the adverse effect immediately. As for communicable disease, it is well understood that communicable disease risks increase significantly in a multi-cat household, which Pederson somewhat arbitrarily tagged at five cats. So, a kitten moving from a large multi-cat household to a household of one, two or three cats may in fact be at less health risk.
When we started breeding, we accepted the conventional wisdom among Ragdoll breeders that MLV vaccines were dangerous compared to killed vaccines. We even had our vet stock killed vaccines for us, which they did not otherwise do. However, it turns out that the shot reaction risk of killed vaccine is higher and the adjuvants in killed vaccines may create an increased shot site cancer risk. Although both types are safe and effectivec, we now give MLV vaccines. So, that something has become a convention among breeders and there are arguments made in its favor of it can be misleading. I would not avoid an experienced and reputable breeder who places kittens at 10 weeks, and I know some excellent breeders who do that. I would take a kitten from them before many breeders who wait until 12 weeks and after.
Is there a greater risk. Perhaps and perhaps not. However, your remark that you are more risk averse in terms of the welfare of kittens than we are or than are the breeders who we know who place kittens at 10 weeks is, I can assure you, false. I have found that often responsible breeders who have been breeding for 30 years know what works for them and their kittens better than anyone else, whether what they do is conventional or not.
Hi Jan - my remark about risk was not intended to insult. No matter your level of experience, you can never guarantee that your position is 100% accurate and every concept in that article is 100% wrong. There will always be a RISK that this is not the case and there may very well be disadvantages not seen or understood. I simply see no reason to take the risk - no matter how small - over a two week delay. I have no problem using a reputable breeder who makes a practice of releasing their kittens at ten weeks. Because any reputable breeder releasing kittens at ten weeks, would be perfectly happy to keep the kitten an additional two weeks or more if requested.
Also, I'm a big believer in nature and think that letting things happen as naturally as possible is most always the best situation. In this case, it is not natural for a kitten to be taken away from it's mom/siblings based on a ten week cuttoff. That process should happen natually overtime as the kitten develops its independence - which I believe is how you handle it - based on your postings. Laura
Laura, you recognize the risk that it may be right, but not the RISK that it may be wrong. A breeder may know her kittens do BETTER leaving closer to 10 weeks than twelve. Nobody may know that better than she. I am not at all sure that my position of placing kittens at 12 weeks and older is 100% right. That is exactly why I indicated placing at 10 weeks is a red flag, but not sufficient to avoid a breeder or kitten. She may be right in general and certainly may be right about her kittens.
Well I'm glad to see we agree that it is a decision based on the potential risks involved. Thanks for all the info. WildFeline should have alot to think about. Laura
For me it is less about the potential risks and more about the responsibility of the breeder and her level of experience. In breeding, there are no risk free choices. I would not second guess her risk assessment within the range of this issue - and a pet buyer would have even less chance of doing that.