(03-03-2010 02:50 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]So, Josephine is not a foundation cat for Ragamuffins?
No! Josephine is not a Foundation Cat of the RagaMuffin Breed. The "foundation" of the RagaMuffin Breed are the cats that were registered in 1994.
(03-03-2010 02:50 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]ACFA found it was losing even more Ragdoll breeders because reds and lynx were not accepted in ACFA and TICA accepted them, per the Ragdoll breed group vote. The solution ACFA came upon, a particularly bad one, was to approve supposed future additional outcrossing to bring red and lynx in AGAIN (more outcrossing to do something already accomplished certainly not being in the interests of the breed) so that now older red and lynx lines can someday be registered by them on transfer from TICA on the pretense they are from more recent outcrosses rather than the older ones. All of this so that they do not have to admit they are accepting what to them at the time was an unacceptable outcross. Survival. ; )
ACFA asked for the disclosure of the Breeds that were used for the introduction of the Red and Lynx into Ragdolls so they could be voted upon and included into the ACFA Ragdoll Breed Standard.The ACFA Ragdoll Breed Committee would not ( or, could not? because they actually didn't know what Breed/s.) comply to the ACFA Rules or with their wishes. ACFA is not TICA and therefore has it's own set of rules regarding the acceptance of future outcrosses into Breeds. TICA is the only Cat Association which allows indescriminate outcrosses into the Breeds they recognise so TICA Ragdoll Outcross sources can and have been and are anything feline in nature.
As for Josephine being a foundation cat for Ragamuffins, you need to spread the word among the Ragamuffin breeders and clubs.
Quote:The story of the RagaMuffin Cat
The story of the RagaMuffin begins with an accident. During the 1960s, Ann Baker, a Persian breeder, developed a friendship with a neighbor who fed and cared for a colony of feral cats. A car struck one of these cats, named Josephine, who had previously given birth to wild kittens.
There were various outcrosses and some were abandoned as comparatively unsuccessful. The outcrosses were not cataloged anyplace and nobody would be able to figure out which survive in the breed. ACFA is just using a fiction to allow more Ragdolls to be registered and shown in ACFA, since they have not adopted an infinite generation pedigree for registration by transfer. They just want to establish that red and lynx are OK in an ACFA Ragdoll. Why not just adopt the fiction that it was immaculate conception? Or just change the breed standard and do not make any provision of the outcross to manage it? Instead they selected FUTURE outcrosses only from Birmans, which as far as I know nobody used to obtain red or lynx and nobody with any sense recommends an outcross to bring in characteristics that are already well established INSIDE the breed! All that ACFA managed was to make yet another bad decision resulting in even more Ragdoll breeders abandoning them.
Curt, you pretend to treat outcrosses as Ann's reputed later year indiscriminate and frequent outcrosses. Of course, that is not what has happened in TICA. Outcrosses are few and far between and are to bring in a particular characteristic. Ragamuffins allow a long list of outcrosses not to bring in particular targeted characteristics, but only to "expand the gene pool." That would seem to mean that your own breed is much more at risk than where an outcross is for a limited purpose, into a breed with a large existing gene pool, only widens its presence to the extent other breeders like the result and means the cats cannot be full, showable members of the breed until after multiple generations of breeding inside the breed. So, to the extent these are "problems," they are much bigger problems for Ragamuffins, including the ones inside ACFA.
(03-03-2010 05:50 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]As for Josephine being a foundation cat for Ragamuffins, you need to spread the word among the Ragamuffin breeders and clubs.
Quote:The story of the RagaMuffin Cat
The story of the RagaMuffin begins with an accident. During the 1960s, Ann Baker, a Persian breeder, developed a friendship with a neighbor who fed and cared for a colony of feral cats. A car struck one of these cats, named Josephine, who had previously given birth to wild kittens.
There were various outcrosses and some were abandoned as comparatively unsuccessful. The outcrosses were not cataloged anyplace and nobody would be able to figure out which survive in the breed. ACFA is just using a fiction to allow more Ragdolls to be registered and shown in ACFA, since they have not adopted an infinite generation pedigree for registration by transfer. They just want to establish that red and lynx are OK in an ACFA Ragdoll. Why not just adopt the fiction that it was immaculate conception? Or just change the breed standard and do not make any provision of the outcross to manage it? Instead they selected FUTURE outcrosses only from Birmans, which as far as I know nobody used to obtain red or lynx and nobody with any sense recommends an outcross to bring in characteristics that are already well established INSIDE the breed! All that ACFA managed was to make yet another bad decision resulting in even more Ragdoll breeders abandoning them.
Curt, you pretend to treat outcrosses as Ann's reputed later year indiscriminate and frequent outcrosses. Of course, that is not what has happened in TICA. Outcrosses are few and far between and are to bring in a particular characteristic. Ragamuffins allow a long list of outcrosses not to bring in particular targeted characteristics, but only to "expand the gene pool." That would seem to mean that your own breed is much more at risk than where an outcross is for a limited purpose, into a breed with a large existing gene pool, only widens its presence to the extent other breeders like the result and means the cats cannot be full, showable members of the breed until after multiple generations of breeding inside the breed. So, to the extent these are "problems," they are much bigger problems for Ragamuffins, including the ones inside ACFA.
That quote was from one of the first magazine articles written about the RagaMuffin Breed.Can you control the Press?
What about this Quote taken from the current Canadian Cat Association Website for the Ragdoll Breed Profile?
"The Ragdoll is a hybrid breed originally resulting from the mating of a White Persian and a Seal Point Birman. The resulting progeny was then mated to a sable Burmese, thereby establishing the Ragdoll lines in the 1960's." This is the "orginal" Breed history that allowed the Ragdoll to be accepted as a Breed. Of course that all changed when the RagaMuffins came along in 1994.Those were the breeders that told the real deal.
"In appearance" began to make it's appearance......................................
As far as an immaculate conception? This is exactly what the ACFA BOD felt they were expected to believe regarding the Breed Committee's non-disclouse of a Breed source. You forget I was present for that Meetings
RagaMuffins always had allowed Outcrosses and many of those are no longer allowable. Maybe if you started your own Breed like I did you would understand that expansion of a "genepool"
is vital to the continued expansion and sucess of a new Breed.With that in mind, I am pleased to see that continued expansion happening. BTW, Only those RagaMuffins that are felt by the Breeder to meet or possibly exceed the current RagaMuffin Breed Standards are Shown or should be Shown.The Judges will either agree with the Breeder assesments of the cat and give placements or they will disagree.This works just fine for Us.
Curt, it seems we can now agree that outcrosses can be beneficial to a breed rather than your pretense that it is some serious, insurmountable threat.
The quote came from a breeder. It seems the Ragamuffin breed group is yet again modifying ITS history of the breed since it has been changed to "under construction." I guess it was so misleading that it could not stay up during rewrite.
I assume few are any longer misled by you, so I will wait to see if anyone seems to be drinking your Kool Aid.
(03-03-2010 07:35 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]The quote came from a breeder. It seems the Ragamuffin breed group is yet again modifying ITS history of the breed since it has been changed to "under construction." I guess it was so misleading that it could not stay up during rewrite
The Press had and possibly some New Breeders have their own interpretation of the RagaMuffin Breed History.Only 5 Breeders were present for the ACFA acceptance of the Breed. I was one of them.
Josephine
IS NOT a foundation registered RagaMuffin. The "Quote" was quoted from either Cat Fancy or Cat's Magazine. I believe the profile was written by Judy Thomas.
Curt, I did not mean the real foundation cats were listed in a particular registry. Rarely does a registry go back very many generations to be listed in their pedigrees. Ragamuffins have described the breed as a "Rag" breed and told the history of the Ragdoll from the get go, trying to bootstrap from the popularity of Ragdolls while still claiming to be a new breed. I am sure "old" Ragamuffin Associated Group breed history is floating someplace in cyberspace. Are you claiming none of the earlier uncleansed versions will not include the story of Josephine? If she is not in the supposed ancestry, then what relevance is her story to the Ragamuffin?
(03-03-2010 07:35 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]Curt, it seems we can now agree that outcrosses can be beneficial to a breed rather than your pretense that it is some serious, insurmountable threat.
I never said outcrossing poises an insurmoutable threat but it is my opinion outcrosses should be selected and approved by the majority of Breeders before the actual Breeding and Registration of them occurs.Outcrossing should only be conducted by experienced Breeders who have a commitment and vested interest in the Breed and not left to the whims of individuals who may possibly choose to breed outside the accepted norms of the Breed.It is also my opinion additional approval should be sought and approved or denied by the registering Assciation's Genetics Committee based on a Breed needs.Then presented to the BOD for denial or approval. I already know you will disagree.
(03-03-2010 08:22 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]Curt, I did not mean the real foundation cats were listed in a particular registry. Rarely does a registry go back very many generations to be listed in their pedigrees. Ragamuffins have described the breed as a "Rag" breed and told the history of the Ragdoll from the get go, trying to bootstrap from the popularity of Ragdolls while still claiming to be a new breed. I am sure "old" Ragamuffin Associated Group breed history is floating someplace in cyberspace. Are you claiming none of the earlier uncleansed versions will not include the story of Josephine? If she is not in the supposed ancestry, then what relevance is her story to the Ragamuffin?
Joesphine will always be a part of the Lore. Lore is common to most Breeds. We never claimed our cats are immune to pain or subject to Cat Nappers!
That is part of the Ragdoll Lore
Then ACFA is for you. For those with more democratic/independence inclinations and those who want to avoid one of the major reasons for false pedigrees, then TICA is for them. I suppose breeders have voted with their affiliations and TICA is many times larger than ACFA and is growing while ACFA continues to contract.
(03-03-2010 09:20 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]For those with more democratic/independence inclinations and those who want to avoid one of the major reasons for false pedigrees, then TICA is for them.
TICA accepted David Chamber's (UCF) false Ragdoll pedigrees for years. Fortunately, David made lots of mistakes with the wrong cats and the wrong person! TICA is not for everyone.
(03-03-2010 09:20 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]TICA is many times larger than ACFA.
As to the larger size of TICA?, therefore meaning it's better? You know what's been said about that right?