Ragdoll Cat Forums

As some of you may know, we’ve been dealing with Tritrichomonas foetus in our ragdolls. Tho they’ve been treated, symptoms continue despite negative test results. As a result of my posting on this forum of our experience in dealing with TF, I’ve been contacted by many others over the months that are also dealing with TF, mostly ragdolls.

Last night I received an email from someone that I am now getting very close too and what she told me disturbed me greatly. She adopted a kitten from a “reputable breeder” that tested positive for TF. While the breeder admits they could be the source of the TF, they are not willing to test the three litters they have now, and they will only test the breeders they have AFTER all these kittens are placed in their new homes. I am angered to hear this and feel this is an extreme injustice to the new potential owners, does nothing to help stop the spread of TF should this cattery have this and feel this breeder is irresponsible in their actions. Often times TF symptoms do not emerge until AFTER they are rehomed and the excitement of adopting a new family member can quickly turn to anxiety if one has to struggle with a sick kid and fight harder for diagnosis not to mention the added expense along with the emotional toll. Furthermore, not all kittens are symptomatic and if the family adds kittens down the road they could become ill from one of these kittens.

So why would a breeder not want to test their cattery for TF? Is it the fear of knowing one has this in their cattery that would cause them not to test? Is it the expense of the testing and if found, having to treat, retest, etc., before the kittens could be placed? Is there a stigma connected to having this and not wanting anyone to know?

I’m sure this is not an isolated incident but the more that surface the madder I get. How can a breeder continue to sell kittens with confirmed tests of TF in those they’ve sold and not care enough to test and treat their catteries? Take it from someone that deals with stool issues daily, times 3, and perhaps you’ll understand why I’m livid.

Since this is a “breeder” thread I felt compelled to ask you breeders all a question.

If you sold a kitten that tested positive for TF, what would you do? Continue the spread by not testing your cattery to determine if you were the source? Or test, treat if necessary, and place your healthy kitty in a forever home?

I haven't started breeding yet though I do have 2 queens waiting to go to stud. Personally I would not sell any kitten that was not healthy or appeared a bit under the weather. If any kitten I sold was later diagnosed with any health issue, I would have all my cats tested and take appropriate steps. My cats are my babies and not breeding machines.
I cannot say the same for all breeders. My first Raggie came from a byb and I am determined to educate the general public about the bad practises and health issues concerned where these breeders are concerned.

Thanks Jan for your post. I hope others feel as you do. I know it is on the rise in the UK but I think it's more because of a better PCR test and it's now more readily available.

Since it sounds like you'll be sending your gals to stud, please be careful that the stud is TF free. Some research also suggests that there is a possibility of it thriving in the male's sheath as it does in bulls. I keep waiting for more to have TF develop in the reproductive tracts as at least one female has that I've read about.

This really ticks me off it is so unfair to the buyers. I am so glad that my potential breeder was honest enough to come to me about this when her cattery had it and she also gave me my money back in full. It's the other breeders that don't take responsibility that need to be called out and let the public know. Why do we as buyers continue to protect them by not letting others know?

(02-13-2010 08:21 PM)KewlKat Wrote: [ -> ]As some of you may know, we’ve been dealing with Tritrichomonas foetus in our ragdolls. Tho they’ve been treated, symptoms continue despite negative test results. As a result of my posting on this forum of our experience in dealing with TF, I’ve been contacted by many others over the months that are also dealing with TF, mostly ragdolls.

Last night I received an email from someone that I am now getting very close too and what she told me disturbed me greatly. She adopted a kitten from a “reputable breeder” that tested positive for TF. While the breeder admits they could be the source of the TF, they are not willing to test the three litters they have now, and they will only test the breeders they have AFTER all these kittens are placed in their new homes. I am angered to hear this and feel this is an extreme injustice to the new potential owners, does nothing to help stop the spread of TF should this cattery have this and feel this breeder is irresponsible in their actions. Often times TF symptoms do not emerge until AFTER they are rehomed and the excitement of adopting a new family member can quickly turn to anxiety if one has to struggle with a sick kid and fight harder for diagnosis not to mention the added expense along with the emotional toll. Furthermore, not all kittens are symptomatic and if the family adds kittens down the road they could become ill from one of these kittens.

So why would a breeder not want to test their cattery for TF? Is it the fear of knowing one has this in their cattery that would cause them not to test? Is it the expense of the testing and if found, having to treat, retest, etc., before the kittens could be placed? Is there a stigma connected to having this and not wanting anyone to know?

I’m sure this is not an isolated incident but the more that surface the madder I get. How can a breeder continue to sell kittens with confirmed tests of TF in those they’ve sold and not care enough to test and treat their catteries? Take it from someone that deals with stool issues daily, times 3, and perhaps you’ll understand why I’m livid.

Since this is a “breeder” thread I felt compelled to ask you breeders all a question.

If you sold a kitten that tested positive for TF, what would you do? Continue the spread by not testing your cattery to determine if you were the source? Or test, treat if necessary, and place your healthy kitty in a forever home?

I feel it is unethical for any breeder to take the above approach (stating they would test after placing 3 litters of kittens) if they admit that the TF could have come from them. As a breeder, I personally want to know what is going on with my kittens. However, if this breeder has TF, it's likely that he or she knows, or at least suspects, that they have TF (or some other issue.) TF symptoms are very hard to ignore.

The cost of testing can vary on whether or not a breeder does PCR testing or pouch testing. The cost of treatment can also be daunting, depending on which compounding pharmacy is used. The only effective treatment for TF is Ronidizole, which can a) have negative side effects, and b) is not really approved for use in cats and c) must be calibrated per each cat's weight (which in kittens, can change during the 14 day course of medication.) Many vets still don't have a good understanding of TF, or the prevalence of it. And yes, there is a stigma attached to any illness/disease/genetic defect that may pop up, because no breeder wants to be associated or black listed because of issues that often - quite frankly - can happen to anyone. These may be some reasons that breeders shy away from testing their catteries.

That being said, breeders, IMHO, have an ethical and moral obligation to provide customers with kittens which are as healthy as possible. Things can happen to the very best of breeders - that is a sad fact of life. However, knowingly selling kittens with issues (or suspecting issues, as in this case) is not OK. Period.

If TF affected my cattery, I would aggressively treat it with Ronidizole, and not place any kitten or cat until the issues had been resolved.

I hope this breeder reconsiders his or her stance on this subject. Best of luck to you and your friend.

It is a mistake to decide what someone else should do or not do without understanding all of the factors that went into that decision - and even then ... . It is also usually a mistake to opine what one would or would not do in circumstances that one is not facing. A breeder facing a health issue with her cats should work with her vets to decide an appropriate response.

Whether one tests or treats or freezes placements or takes some other step will often depend on a complex set of factors and not just one obvious and simple black and white choice - although from the outside it may be tempting to describe the situation in that fashion and to judge it based on that view.

I have many more questions about t foetus and its treatment than I have protocols for it.

One has a lack of information about its presence in groups of cats and the correlation with symptoms.

One has a potentially dangerous single effective treatment.

One has descriptions of strains resistant to that treatment.

One has reports of symptoms continuing even after the microbe is gone, which raises questions about accurate linking of presence to symptoms.

One has reports of significant presence without symptoms - so called carriers.

One has tests which yield a positive result at extremely low levels.

One has a condition that is often benign or close to it and does not seem life threatening even in extreme cases - although in extreme cases very difficult to tolerate.

So, one has starting points for cats who are symptomatic and not responding to more traditional treatment for GI upset, but one does not have anything close to clear, consensus approaches to a "system" as complex as a cattery.

So, breeders should avoid the desire to pander by giving the desired answers to such questions unless they have experience with symptomatic cats and can describe how, in fact, they responded to it rather than their best guess about it. That is a disservice to any other breeder who faces the issue and may be a disservice to themselves in the future in case they are in that position and find it wisest and best to take another approach.

(02-14-2010 07:53 AM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]It is a mistake to decide what someone else should do or not do without understanding all of the factors that went into that decision - and even then ... . It is also usually a mistake to opine what one would or would not do in circumstances that one is not facing. A breeder facing a health issue with her cats should work with her vets to decide an appropriate response.

Whether one tests or treats or freezes placements or takes some other step will often depend on a complex set of factors and not just one obvious and simple black and white choice - although from the outside it may be tempting to describe the situation in that fashion and to judge it based on that view.

I have many more questions about t foetus and its treatment than I have protocols for it.

One has a lack of information about its presence in groups of cats and the correlation with symptoms.

One has a potentially dangerous single effective treatment.

One has descriptions of strains resistant to that treatment.

One has reports of symptoms continuing even after the microbe is gone, which raises questions about accurate linking of presence to symptoms.

One has reports of significant presence without symptoms - so called carriers.

One has tests which yield a positive result at extremely low levels.

One has a condition that is often benign or close to it and does not seem life threatening even in extreme cases - although in extreme cases very difficult to tolerate.

So, one has starting points for cats who are symptomatic and not responding to more traditional treatment for GI upset, but one does not have anything close to clear, consensus approaches to a "system" as complex as a cattery.

So, breeders should avoid the desire to pander by giving the desired answers to such questions unless they have experience with symptomatic cats and can describe how, in fact, they responded to it rather than their best guess about it. That is a disservice to any other breeder who faces the issue and may be a disservice to themselves in the future in case they are in that position and find it wisest and best to take another approach.

I'm sorry Jan, but I respectfully disagree. Particularly because the kitten from that breeder has tested positive for TF, and the breeder admits it "may" have come from their cattery........to ignore the *potential* issues and refuse to even test prior to the placement of 3 litters of kittens (potentially spreading this issue further into how many households) because one doesn't like the possible answers (ie: the treatment is expensive/has bad side effects/etc.) is not an OK approach. As long as the breeder is taking some steps to be proactive in responding to the situation, whatever those steps are *PRIOR* to potentially spreading it to other homes (testing, holding back the kittens, informing potential kitten buyers, etc.), is an appropriate response.

Because one may have their own questions and reservations about TF and its treatment is not a reason to discourage others understanding their options, and making the best choices for themselves. Some pet owners may choose the "no treatment" approach, and learn to live with the symptoms. As breeders, if we don't feel comfortable in testing or treating for issues such as TF because of all of the potential downfalls, the very least we have is an ethical obligation to be upfront and honest with our pet buyers, and inform them of the situation to allow them to decide what they would like to do.

As a breeder and a human being, I have opinions about what I believe breeders should or shouldn't do - as do all other breeders and human beings. As humans, we aren't really objective - especially about things we are passionate about.

You also make assumptions that I've not yet had to face a situation similar in nature to this, and that I'm responding based on idealistic beliefs on my part. You would be incorrect in these assumptions.

Easy to say from afar.

Without knowing the incidence, one cannot make assumptions about "spreading" anything. For example, such an idea would be inappropriate for CV, rhino, chlamydia, calici ...

Holding three litters of kittens may INCREASE the risks to the kittens and may be no meaningful risk for any cats in the new households. If a high percentage of cases are benign and the level of it is high (both indicated by the primary researcher), then why is it obvious to freeze placements, much less it being ethically mandated?

You assume exposure among all the cats and kittens of this breeder. In our household, litters are kept apart and kittens are kept apart from most adults as well. Finding something in a placed litter is of limited value with respect to risk to other kittens.

If you do test, particularly by PCR, and find positive results, what does it mean? It is not obvious that treatment of asymptomatic, positive cats is appropriate. What about negative cats?

As I wrote, it is hubris to write what you WOULD do if you had the issue when you do not even have enough information to know what to ask, much less how to respond. Only over time as various information is collected and various techniques are tried can one start to formulate protocols in response. That STARTS with folks who are faced with symptomatic cats and dealing with those and the cats who have the same exposure. One tests and medicates in those environments and reviews the results to decide what an appropriate and optimum response may be.

The story we know most about are symptomatic cats treated and retested to be free of the microbe yet still symptomatic. What does that say about the treatment and eradication of the microbe and what to do about a household of cats all of whom are asymptomatic and one kitten outplaced being found symptomatic and testing positive - if those are the facts? I do not purport to know how best to respond.

Are you testing all of your cats?


For me, it is not about not wanting the results. It is about not knowing what to do with the results if one gets them. You can treat asymptomatic cats with a potentially dangerous medication of unknown efficacy, but I would not do that. You might not either with more information about other tests and other treatments that have gone tragically wrong.

This would be simpler if the medication was safe and effective. It is reported to be neither. I will let others turn their cats into lab rats with it and then review those results to decide what to do about our cats and kittens, including testing. I view that as the ethical (and wise) approach. I see no reason to be a leader on this front.

If you ever have to deal with a serious medical issue in your cattery, and I hope you do not, you will find that very little is simple or obvious about it.

As for advising potential buyers about the other kitten, that may well be appropriate, depending on the breeder's vet's confidence in the diagnosis.

---

Breeders learn how best to respond to feline health issues based on the experiences and approaches of breeders on the "front line" of that challenge. Some of those approaches will work and some will not. When you have folks on the sidelines with inherently minimal information, particularly other breeders who should know better, opining that this or that choice is not only unwise, but unethical, then you make it much more difficult for the cat fancy to come up with appropriate responses. It just shuts down communications about the real world cases that educate us on what to do. Breeders dealing with cases are the ones who should be sought out for advice on how to respond, including approaches that turn out being mistakes, not criticized and judged.

(02-14-2010 03:30 PM)JanH Wrote: [ -> ]Easy to say from afar.

Without knowing the incidence, one cannot make assumptions about "spreading" anything. For example, such an idea would be inappropriate for CV, rhino, chlamydia, calici ...

Holding three litters of kittens may INCREASE the risks to the kittens and may be no meaningful risk for any cats in the new households. If a high percentage of cases are benign and the level of it is high (both indicated by the primary researcher), then why is it obvious to freeze placements, much less it being ethically mandated?

You assume exposure among all the cats and kittens of this breeder. In our household, litters are kept apart and kittens are kept apart from most adults as well. Finding something in a placed litter is of limited value with respect to risk to other kittens.

If you do test, particularly by PCR, and find positive results, what does it mean? It is not obvious that treatment of asymptomatic, positive cats is appropriate. What about negative cats?

As I wrote, it is hubris to write what you WOULD do if you had the issue when you do not even have enough information to know what to ask, much less how to respond. Only over time as various information is collected and various techniques are tried can one start to formulate protocols in response. That STARTS with folks who are faced with symptomatic cats and dealing with those and the cats who have the same exposure. One tests and medicates in those environments and reviews the results to decide what an appropriate and optimum response may be.

The story we know most about are symptomatic cats treated and retested to be free of the microbe yet still symptomatic. What does that say about the treatment and eradication of the microbe and what to do about a household of cats all of whom are asymptomatic and one kitten outplaced being found symptomatic and testing positive - if those are the facts? I do not purport to know how best to respond.

Are you testing all of your cats?


For me, it is not about not wanting the results. It is about not knowing what to do with the results if one gets them. You can treat asymptomatic cats with a potentially dangerous medication of unknown efficacy, but I would not do that. You might not either with more information about other tests and other treatments that have gone tragically wrong.

This would be simpler if the medication was safe and effective. It is reported to be neither. I will let others turn their cats into lab rats with it and then review those results to decide what to do about our cats and kittens, including testing. I view that as the ethical (and wise) approach. I see no reason to be a leader on this front.

If you ever have to deal with a serious medical issue in your cattery, and I hope you do not, you will find that very little is simple or obvious about it.

As for advising potential buyers about the other kitten, that may well be appropriate, depending on the breeder's vet's confidence in the diagnosis.

---

Breeders learn how best to respond to feline health issues based on the experiences and approaches of breeders on the "front line" of that challenge. Some of those approaches will work and some will not. When you have folks on the sidelines with inherently minimum information, particularly other breeders who should know better, opining that this or that choice is not only unwise, but unethical, then you make it much more difficult for the cat fancy to come up with appropriate responses. It just shuts down communications about the real world cases that educate us on what to do. Breeders dealing with cases are the ones who should be sought out for advice on how to respond, including approaches that turn out being mistakes, not criticized and judged.

Hi Jan,

You bring up some valid points. One, the word "ethical" might be "too loaded" of a word to use. Two, there are facts that are not necessarily known, and it is erroneous to assume that *I*, or anyone else, besides those directly involved know what is going on *exactly*.

There are many, many stories about pet cats as well as catteries being successfully treated with Ronidizole. The incidents where, unfortunately, the treatment doesn't work, are not as common as the the stories where treatment has worked and TF is no longer present at all. Sometimes, the treatment had to be repeated in order for it to be effective. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are strains that are resistant to Ronidizole, and have no known treatment at this time.

http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/docs/documents/o...120909.pdf

Jan said: "If a high percentage of cases are benign and the level of it is high (both indicated by the primary researcher)" I'm not sure what you're referring to here (bolded text), or where you found this information, so I apologize for not being able to address it, agree with it, disagree with it, etc.

Jan said: "When you have folks on the sidelines with inherently minimum information, particularly other breeders who should know better, opining that this or that choice is not only unwise, but unethical, then you make it much more difficult for the cat fancy to come up with appropriate responses. It just shuts down communications about the real world cases that educate us on what to do. Breeders dealing with cases are the ones who should be sought out for advice on how to respond, including approaches that turn out being mistakes, not criticized and judged."

You make the judgment that as another breeder, I should know better that to have opinions - or perhaps to state them in public - on what anyone else does or doesn't do with their breeding program.

I do apologize if I've appeared overly critical or judgmental of another breeder's choices. I am only human, after all. I only know my protocols, and am constantly trying to improve and learn from my mistakes as well. You are correct that sometimes the learning comes from making mistakes. However, would you not agree that you haven't seen any other breeders jumping on here to share their experiences? Why do you imagine that is? Perhaps they too would not like to be judged and criticized for voicing an opinion that they have a right to, just as you do. Do you not agree that there is a stigma attached with sharing one's experience with something such as TF - that other breeders who may not be as knowledgeable or wise might judge and criticize them? What if - theoretically - I told you that I had once dealt with TF (prior to becoming a breeder) and treated every cat I owned, not just one that tested positive? Would you now judge me as using my cats as guinea pigs?

If a breeder is not experiencing issues with chronic, intermittent diarrhea, testing for TF might not be necessary. However, if a breeder is experiencing these symptoms, or is told by a kitten buyer that their new kitten has tested positive, what might a breeder do? What would you do? As you have years of experience that I do not, I would be interested to hear your opinion of this.

As to your question about whether or not I test my cats, the answer is yes. I also have my vet check to see that my cats have two kidneys, test negative for the HCM mutation, have two testicles (if they're male), etc. I have personally tested all of my cats for FelV and FIV (though all of my breeders were tested prior to coming to me.) I have also recently taken on a second job to support my breeding program.

I defer to your years of experience, and respect your opinion. I hope that you can recognize that newer breeders can also be knowledgeable about some things, and perhaps some of us newer breeders have experienced things that even some more experienced breeders haven't. Like you, I also hope that some horrific health issue doesn't hit my cattery, but if it does, I strive to feel as prepared as I can be to deal with it.

Respectfully Submitted,
Debbie

(02-14-2010 07:28 PM)dprince Wrote: [ -> ]There are many, many stories about pet cats as well as catteries being successfully treated with Ronidizole.

Can you give some cites. I would like to read of those experiences.

Quote:The incidents where, unfortunately, the treatment doesn't work, are not as common as the the stories where treatment has worked and TF is no longer present at all. Sometimes, the treatment had to be repeated in order for it to be effective. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are strains that are resistant to Ronidizole, and have no known treatment at this time.

What are the statistic? The citation you provided includes:
"Toxicity data have not been published for this drug in cats. However, neurotoxicity has occurred in some cats treated with Ronidazole. Signs of toxicity include lethargy, inappetence, ataxia 1 (drunken-like behavior), or seizures. These generally resolve if the drug is withdrawn immediately, but can last 1-2 weeks and may require costly and intensive emergency veterinary
care"

and

"The cat is infected with T. foetus that are “resistant” to Ronidazole. How often an
appropriate treatment course with Ronidazole actually fails to kill T. foetus is unknown."

Quote: Jan said: "If a high percentage of cases are benign and the level of it is high (both indicated by the primary researcher)" I'm not sure what you're referring to here (bolded text), or where you found this information, so I apologize for not being able to address it, agree with it, disagree with it, etc.

You linked it. Dr. Gookin postulates that about 1/3 of cattery cats carry t. foetus. Do you believe cats with serious symptoms are anywhere near that.

She wrote: "Infected cats may or may not have observable symptoms."

Quote: would you not agree that you haven't seen any other breeders jumping on here to share their experiences? Why do you imagine that is? Perhaps they too would not like to be judged and criticized for voicing an opinion that they have a right to, just as you do. Do you not agree that there is a stigma attached with sharing one's experience with something such as TF - that other breeders who may not be as knowledgeable or wise might judge and criticize them? What if - theoretically - I told you that I had once dealt with TF (prior to becoming a breeder) and treated every cat I owned, not just one that tested positive? Would you now judge me as using my cats as guinea pigs?

I assume others have not posted because they have not discovered any cases and do not know what the appropriate reaction should be. That is certainly my view. As for your experience, you leave out the details that would make it useful and to compare it to the little posted about this case. (My comment about guinea pigs was about a symptom free cattery.) If your experience made the supposed approach of this other breeder inappropriate, then share the elements that convince you of that. What you have disclosed so far of your experience does not convince me to test nor to treat. It is not obvious to me that, based on the supposed presence of the microbe and the dangers of the treatment, that the approach should be to try to have a t foetus free cattery, just as we do not try to have CV free or rhino free or calici free catteries. One can go through your presumed recommended approach and all the kittens may be reinfected in one year - having undergone possibly dangerous preventative treatment for no purpose other than to be lined up again.

I do not know that will turn out to be true. However, I do not intend to lead the experiments in trying to find out unless we have symptoms that need to be treated and it turns out to be this microbe. THEN, I will decide about testing and treatment.

Quote:However, if a breeder is experiencing these symptoms, or is told by a kitten buyer that their new kitten has tested positive, what might a breeder do? What would you do? As you have years of experience that I do not, I would be interested to hear your opinion of this.

I would work with my vet to confirm, or negate, the diagnosis and consult with him about the appropriate responses to protect my cats. He is very good about contacting experts for advice when needed and he can understand and scope the risks of both action and inaction better than I. I do not assume I would freeze kitten placements. I do not assume I would treat all cats. I do not assume I would even treat asymptomatic positive cats. I DO NOT KNOW. ; )

Quote:I hope that you can recognize that newer breeders can also be knowledgeable about some things, and perhaps some of us newer breeders have experienced things that even some more experienced breeders haven't.

If your approach is to treat asymptomatic, PCR positive cats - or worse - your entire cattery, I believe you are making a mistake. And sadly, the results of your efforts even if problem free will not be of any aid to anyone else other than for the very limited information about the number of doses of meds given without side effects. This is true based on why one cannot determine that there are no elephants in Central Park because of someone blowing whistles there.

Some, mostly new breeders, decided a few years ago to try Dr. Addies recommendations about having CV free catteries. No doubt some pet owners were impressed by that effort and perhaps selected breeders based on it. However, they were just kidding themselves and one hears very little about that technique these days - a very short time later. Your approach may be very much like it with the unpleasant addition of an unsafe med tossed in. That is my worry. I do not like to volunteer to lead on medical issues. A much touted medicine some years ago turned out to cause blindness when used in a larger population. I will be a follower on these issues as long as possible.

(In your laundry list of tests, you did not mention blood testing. That is a good idea too. Perhaps a third job will be needed. ; ) )